Control Group ([info]control_group) wrote,
@ 2005-11-07 10:12:00
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"For sale: French rifle. Never fired, dropped once." -or- "Isabella is kind of a ho"
Hokay, so:

I have begun playing Civ 4. I've completed one game, am dominating a continent on Terra circa AD 1300 in another, and have taken a stab at multiplayer. It should not surprise anyone, then, that I am about to ramble on about Civ 4 for a bit. After all, I'm always thrilled to natter on about subjects of interest to no one but me.

The following lists will contain topics of discussion, and have not been placed behind a cut tag FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

THE GOOD

  • Somewhat less micromanagement of workers. Upping their movement rate helped a lot.
  • No more civil unrest. Spectacular.
  • Cottages instead of roads (for increasing gold production).
  • Religions.

THE BAD

  • The revamped Civilopedia. Yech.
  • The redesign of the tech tree diagram.
  • The lack of different civs.

THE UNDECIDED

  • The myriad civics.
  • Varied unit promotions.
  • The new Great Wonders.

Let's start off with the good stuff. The new worker management is, in a word, fantastic. Where in Civ 3 you couldn't afford to not micromanage every step your workers took pretty much until you had railroads, in Civ 4 you can successfully leave them to their own devices once you've got more than two (or three, depending on your expansion rate. This is playing on Noble, incidentally). They do a reliable job, for the most part. The inclusion of the "build trade network" order is spectacular, though I do wish they had included somewhat more specific automation orders. I'd like buttons to dedicate workers to, specifically, increasing production, increasing food, increasing commerce. But, on the whole, workers are much improved.

The removal of civil unrest accomplishes exactly what they set out to do: it gets rid of a portion of the game that was pretty much annoying to no particular benefit. I always found managing a dozen cities to be more of a pain than it was worth in this regard: that is, the benefits of tailoring a city's production were far outweighed by the costs of having to constantly check the details of each city each turn, or end up getting a nasty shock when a city went into shutdown. Now, of course, I still have to manage city improvements and whatnot to maximize efficiency, but I can afford to let an individual city slide for a couple turns without disaster.

Cottages instead of roads for commerce is more of a toss-up in my mind, but I think I come down in favor of it. It slows things down, of course, since you now need to build both a cottage and a road on a tile you want extra gold from...but the growth factor of cottages makes up for it pretty well. It does change improvement strategy somewhat, of course, since there's now a much greater incentive to work for commerce early, even at the cost of food or shields. And I intend to keep calling them shields, incidentally. This hammer business is for n00bs.

Religion is a great inclusion. I understand why they avoided it previously, but I think they did an excellent job making the religions almost entirely interchangeable without making it so even-steven that there's no point to them. Besides, there's endless amusement in getting a demand from Mansa Musa that says essentially, "adopt Buddhism or we'll kill you," or in seeing a message pop up saying "Berlin has adopted Judaism."

Civ 4 may be a great game, but they took huge steps backwards, in some ways. Most notably, the new Civilopedia blows goats. Big hairy goats. All of them. You have to know what something is before you can look it up: there's no complete index or search function. So the first time you see "can build a Workshop," for example, it's tough to figure out what that actually means. My first guess was that it was a building, which led to me not being able to find it. Once I took a guess at it being an improvement, instead, of course, I found it. But there's no reason it should be that difficult. Not to mention something like the top level of the units section, where you have to pick a unit from a list of icons. If you're looking for "Great Prophet," it's not obvious which one that is. Once you know it, of course, you can find it...but writing the help file for people who already know its contents is kind of silly.

Ditto the new layout of the tech tree. It took me quite some time to figure out dependencies. Using arrows to indicate "maybe necessary" is completely backwards. I know how to read a flowchart, don't go breaking the conventions. And certainly don't go breaking the convention by making the most important information—what techs I must have before getting a certain new one—the hardest information to extract from the diagram. Shame on you, Firaxis.

The only other bad thing I have to say is really fairly minor, and easily addressed if (when) they release an add-on. I had grown accustomed to the myriad civs available after getting PtW and Conquests for Civ 3. The list now just seems paltry in comparison...and they got rid of the Ottomans, my favorite civ (and one of the ones included in basic Civ 3).

Finally, there's some stuff I'm too up in the air on to really decide just yet. Biggest of these are the civics. I see a lot of potential in the concept, but I'm unconvinced at this point that it adds something to the game that's worth the extra tinkering required. To be honest, I'm on the very brink of saying they're great, but I'm just not quite sure yet. We'll see how that goes.

I'm much iffier on the unit promotions. In the early game, when you've only got a few units to deal with, the role-playing sort of XP/bonus thing is kind of neat, I guess. As you enter the middle and end game, though, I really don't think I like it. It adds an extra level of organizational complexity to a large army—now, you don't just have to get some warrior/horse archor/armored cav units to the target, you have to get specific units to the target. Add this to the upgrade path that units have via tech, and a large army becomes exceedingly difficult to keep effective track of. Now, it might be something I can just get used to, and I can certainly see how it could make a military force very effective...but I'm not at all sold on its net utility.

Finally, there are the new Great Wonders. I'm undecided on these, I think, only because I knew what the old ones did, and I fear change. I have to re-evaluate all my ideas of which Wonders fit with which overall strategies, and that's a lot of work. But that's just me being stuffy and old; the new Wonders are probably to the better.

On the whole, the game is fantastic.

[info]assfingers' computer, not so fantastic.

But that's a different story.




(Post a new comment)


[info]assfingers
2005-11-07 04:31 pm UTC (link)
First and foremost, I need to come up with a Civ4 icon. But that's only because I can't buy RAM from my desk (I'll be hitting up the tech store at lunch, I think). When I went back to single player, BTW, my speed was back to normal. Donno what that suggests, if anything.

I've already seen Turkish Empire mods. I'm sure that there will be loads more. Is this a new feature, modding? I thought it was.

After you had hyped the Civilopedia so much, I was surprised at how lame it was. Your description of the old one makes me a little annoyed that this NEW AND IMPROVED (theoretically) version is actually quite a bit lamer.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]control_group
2005-11-07 04:53 pm UTC (link)
I should show you the Civ 3 Civilopedia some time, just so you can see it and hate the new one even more. The previous version was a fantastic information resource. Anything you needed to know about the game, you could find out there, and quickly. The new one is crap—and it's made worse by the fact that they clearly wrote the manual knowing that the real information is in the Civilopedia. So there's an awful lot of stuff they gloss over in the manual, but you can't find easily in the Civilopedia. I hates it.

Buying RAM is a good plan. I'm going to be home this evening, and I intend to play Civ 4 and watch football.

It might also help, incidentally, if we didn't play Terra/Huge/Epic. Your PC might have just been having a scope problem. If we went with Terra/Large/Normal, and only tossed in four other civs, we might have better luck.

Modding isn't a new feature, insofar as there were plenty of mods made for Civ 3. But Firaxis went out of its way with Civ 4 to make modding very, very easy. They implemented almost everything in XML or Python, both of which are very accessible.

Incidentally: I think I've got ~20 icons left. A significant portion of them might be devoted to Civ 4 leaders.

FOR GREAT JUSTICE

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]_sterno_
2005-11-07 04:59 pm UTC (link)
A lot of people are having huge slowdown issues with the game. I've only had one game that took me to the point where I could share world maps, and in that game I was essentially the Australia of the world. I didn't meet other Civs until about AD 1500, and it was about AD1800 before I could convince any of them to share their world map with me.

When one of them finally did, the game locked up and chugged for about 4 minutes while the world map loaded. After that, it was pretty suicidal to zoom out and look at the globe, because the game just ran too poorly at that point. And I have a pretty nice machine.

I haven't looked into it too much yet, but there does seem to be a lot of people with ATI cards that are complaining, and I see just about everyone complaining that the game has a memory leak, and that later in the game it might make sense to save, reboot, and then reload the game. A lot of people apparently get a performance increase for a while after they do that.

Of course, if [info]assfingers is using a computer from the Stone Age, he might just be screwed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]assfingers, 2005-11-07 05:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]angrybunnyman, 2005-11-07 05:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 05:20 pm UTC

[info]assfingers
2005-11-07 05:03 pm UTC (link)
The kicker, though, is that the other game I am playing right now is ALSO terra/huge/epic. It has the max number of civs, to boot. I'm perplexed. If the RAM doesn't do it, I don't know what will.

I bought this for two specific purposes: music management (d/l, conversion, burning, storage) and getting back into gaming. I knew I had to add RAM but had been putting it off for no real reason. Again, if that doesn't do it, I don't know what will.

I might need to teach myself how to mod. I'd like to add guys to the empires they already have (esp American, Roman, and British) and make some empires of my own (Canadian, Polish, Libyan, etc)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 05:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]graye, 2005-11-07 05:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]assfingers, 2005-11-07 05:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 05:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]angrybunnyman, 2005-11-07 06:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 06:59 pm UTC

[info]graye
2005-11-07 05:12 pm UTC (link)
Agreed on the new civilopedia. Its hot garbage.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 05:21 pm UTC

[info]graye
2005-11-07 05:16 pm UTC (link)
I NEED A CIV 4 ICON TOO

I claim Caesar or the Chairman

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]control_group
2005-11-07 05:19 pm UTC (link)
You need to take Caesar. He was my first choice, but once I actually made the image, it just looked to [info]graye for me to use.

When I engage in my Civ 4 icon explosion (which will be soon, probably), though, I don't promise to not make the Chairman.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 05:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]graye, 2005-11-07 05:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]assfingers, 2005-11-07 05:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]angrybunnyman, 2005-11-07 05:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]assfingers, 2005-11-07 05:40 pm UTC

[info]_sterno_
2005-11-07 04:54 pm UTC (link)
The game is highly moddable. If you want the Ottomans, I'm betting you could create them with about 20 minutes of work, 18 of that being figuring out how to do it. Granted, I don't understand why they didn't just add all the Civs from the previous games in the first place. I guess that would have meant a few extra pages in the rulebook.

I really miss Sun Tsu's Art of War. Civ 3 wired my brain to never build a barracks, because I'd eventually just pick up that wonder and get one in every city.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]angrybunnyman
2005-11-07 05:04 pm UTC (link)
Civics have/had great potential. In Alpha Centauri, they were incredibly useful and had a dramatic effect on the game. They had so much impact that, if yuo had the right spread, you could win with a few civilizations in significantly fewer turns thath the game would otherwise allow. I think that Civ 4 made them less amazing and more a decent nudge in what ever area they affect.

I think that building the Pyramids early makes civics better, since you get free access to them via the Pyramids. That way you can swap civics as your early needs change. For example, you can boost unit production with suffrage/slavery, swap to... I can't remember the name but one of the civics gives your cities happiness bonuses for producing/stationing units within it.

Towards the endgame, though, they become mostly unnecessary with the exception of those that speed production. Happiness, culture and religion are only moderately important by the end, assuming you're not tying to hook up cultural/religious domination and assuming you've built enough wonders and improvements to keep citizens happy.. Even then, though, I don't think the civics affect enough for it to matter.

Any of that make sense?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]angrybunnyman
2005-11-07 05:04 pm UTC (link)
That wasn't supposed to be a response to [info]_sterno_...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]control_group
2005-11-07 05:25 pm UTC (link)
That could be part of the problem; I never played SMAC.

I'm calling them a net plus for the moment, but provisionally. We'll see how they work out.

But some of them just seem a bit crap. Slavery, for example. I can think of very few situations where swapping population for production might be a good idea.

Unfortunately, one of those situations doomed my burgeoning (two city, gaem-leading) French Empire yesterday: a sudden influx of seven barbarian axemen, when all I'd had to face previously was, at most, two barbarian warriors. On Epic, there was no chance for me to pump out enough units to save me once they all showed up pretty much simultaneously.

(Yes, this is my own fault for procrastinating military buildup until I finished the Pyramids)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]angrybunnyman, 2005-11-07 05:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 05:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_sterno_, 2005-11-07 05:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 06:30 pm UTC

[info]control_group
2005-11-07 05:18 pm UTC (link)
The biggest holdup to building the Ottomans, really, would be creating the art. As far as their performance, I'm pretty sure that's not even Python, that's all XML. You don't have to know jack in order to "reverse engineer" XML, really. But it's just not as much without the art.

As for the Wonders, I've got a similar problem with granaries. Building the Pyramids was always priority #1, so I never built granaries unless someone beat me to the Pyramids. Now I have to consciously remember to put them in. Ditto the Oracle and temples.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

dammit
[info]comkilserv
2005-11-07 05:44 pm UTC (link)
do i really NEED another game that can swallow large portions of my life?


*deep breath*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: dammit
[info]control_group
2005-11-07 05:47 pm UTC (link)
Yes.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: dammit
[info]comkilserv
2005-11-07 05:55 pm UTC (link)
rats.



i was worried you'd say that.

oh well...i need to put that gig of ram to use SOMEHOW

i'll look into it this afternoon
if this turns out to be another matt-ian-fallout-tactics-fun situation we may be in trouble

big time

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: dammit - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 05:57 pm UTC
Re: dammit - [info]assfingers, 2005-11-07 06:01 pm UTC
Re: dammit - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 06:27 pm UTC
Re: dammit - [info]angrybunnyman, 2005-11-07 06:47 pm UTC
Re: dammit - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 07:02 pm UTC
Re: dammit - [info]graye, 2005-11-07 07:12 pm UTC

[info]andamaroo
2005-11-07 05:54 pm UTC (link)
I have to say based on my vast personal resevior of neither seeing or playing any civ4, I'm very very disappointed in the tech tree. It seems like total jerks.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]control_group
2005-11-07 05:55 pm UTC (link)
You're no doubt correct.

Nowhere on the tech tree—nowhere—can you develop PTR.

There is a picture of Algore attached to the Internet world wonder, though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]graye
2005-11-07 06:05 pm UTC (link)
That Al Gore thing vis a vis the internet was genius.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]_guy_incognito
2005-11-07 07:40 pm UTC (link)
What about Babingatron?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]control_group, 2005-11-07 08:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_guy_incognito, 2005-11-07 08:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]assfingers, 2005-11-07 08:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_guy_incognito, 2005-11-07 08:41 pm UTC

[info]abercromb
2005-11-07 08:50 pm UTC (link)
I hate you in more ways that I can express.

YOUR ABILITY TO GET RESPONSES FROM NONSENSE ASTOUNDS ME AND I BOW BEFORE YOU OH GREAT ONE.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]control_group
2005-11-07 09:30 pm UTC (link)
WTF?

How in the hell can you call this post nonsense? I spent a not-insignificant amount of time writing this, I made several points that I consider valid, and provided the reasoning and rationale for my conclusions.

People responded to points I had made, giving their opinions and thoughts on them based on their own experiences.

If a reasoned post with knowledgable discussion qualifies as "nonsense" to you, I don't know where you've got your bar set, but it's too fucking high.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]abercromb
2005-11-08 03:49 am UTC (link)
Ok ok ok....Let me rephrase. I'm a shit, unable to understand the point of the post or the game. I apologize. I just am truly so impressed. I guess if I understood i wouldn't call it nonsense. I didn't mean nonesense as in STUPID BABBLING CRAP I just meant...well, you know....OK OK OK I MEANT SOMETHING I DON'T UNDERSTAND! *weep*

I am small minded and shallow *thud*
forgive me

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]assfingers
2005-11-07 10:24 pm UTC (link)
it's one thing to call my posts nonsense (they are! hooray!) but come on now.

I'm not in the business of giving breaks to Mr Group, as he is a first rate jerk, but this was a quality post with quality discussion!

you may consider the subject matter to be nonsense, which is up to you, but every post on LJ that garners 50+ comments does not actually indicate that the post itself is worthless.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]abercromb
2005-11-08 03:50 am UTC (link)
Actually you will probably hate me for this but I get you two confused. So when one posts I think it's the other. I was actually telling YOU that, not control_group. Sheesh, I've made a mess of things eh?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]andamaroo, 2005-11-08 05:43 am UTC

[info]_guy_incognito
2005-11-28 03:35 pm UTC (link)
How do you manage upkeep costs of having a larger army? Doesn't having a decent army make it more difficult to balance the budget and keep up on tech as aren't you spending gold to keep their upkeep?

Also how can one ever afford the exorbitant price of upgrading units or the time to build new up to date versions of your army? Do you ever disband armies or do you always upgrade?

...I guess I'm mainly asking if you know how it works, or what approach to take.

Keep in mind I've only played 1 game of Civ 4 (not finished yet) and I never got the hang of it in the few games of Civ 3 either (which, I know I had the problem in)

on another note of the game...
any thoughts on what's the best use of great leaders? between (depending on the type of leader) hurry production, joining the city, building a building (academy), discovering a tech, creating a great work (I really liked this as I was playing for cultural dominance, but is it better than having them join the city?) I have no idea what's best...is it situational or is there just a best?

Also, the Golden Age I started when I got two at once didn't seem to be worth the cost of two great leaders, thoughts?

I don't know if you get emailed comments so you may never see this...I'm also going to be posting similar questions to all in my lj in a bit in case you'd rather answer there...

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